In an interview with Ricardo Grzona, Executive Director of the Ramon Pane Foundation, Raad Salam Naaman, a persecuted Chaldean Christian who is living in Spain as a political refugee, said that the Pope’s trip to Iraq “showed great courage,” and that the trip had “great meaning and hope for all Christians,” and was “a great privilege.”
Raad Salam Naaman, a native of Mosul, Iraq, is a professor, writer, translator and interpreter. A Chaldean Christian of Mesopotamian origin, he is a political refugee residing at present in Spain with Spanish nationality. He has a doctorate in Arabic Philology and has specialized in Arabic Islamic Studies and Religious Sciences.
He was born in the city of Nineveh in 1959 and was educated in Basora, near Ur of the Chaldeans, in the south of Iraq. He did his military service in the Iran-Iraq wars (1980-1988) and in the first Gulf War in 1991. He has endured numerous persecutions, mistreatment, death threats, attacks, and kidnappings, as well as imprisonment and a death sentence. Fleeing from Islamic radicalism, he arrived in Madrid in 1995, where he was given political asylum.
In the course of this interview, Naaman talks about the origin of the first Christians in the Mesopotamian region, the religious persecution carried out by radical Islamism, the importance of the Holy Father’s apostolic visit at the beginning of March, the differences between Islam and Christianity and other topics.
Ricardo GrzonaHere is Grzona’s interview with Naaman, in which Exaudi asks a question.
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Grzona: Since when have Christians been in Iraq?
Naaman: Iraq is the ancient region of Mesopotamia; it is the cradle of civilization, where the Tigris and Euphrates meet. According to chapter 2 of Genesis, it is there that the earthly paradise was located. Today it is an earthly hell thanks to Islamic terrorism. It is there where the world’s first civilizations arose: the Sumerians, 4,000 years before Christ; the Acadians; the Queen who built Nineveh’s cities, Ur of the Chaldeans, Babylon. Moreover, it’s the village of the prophet Abraham, 1,900 years B.C. It’s the village of King Hammurabi, the writer of the first Civil Code in history.
According to the Church’s tradition, the Apostle Saint Thomas passed through Mesopotamia on his way to India, where he died a martyr. He left two of his disciples in Iraq: Addai and Mari. From the first century, they began to preach Christianity to the natives. Congregations and communities were formed there from the beginning. Thus we are the country’s originals; we, Christians, are the descendants of the ancient Mesopotamians. I’m neither Arab nor — as they said here (in Spain) when I first arrived, introducing me as a former Muslim who converted to Christianity. My ancestors are much older Christians than those in the West. Thus we are the first Christians; we are the fruit of the preaching of Jesus’ first Apostles; we are the fruit of Saint Thomas’ preaching in Mesopotamia.
Muslims and Arabs came very much later to our land, with the conquests of Omar’s second Orthodox Caliphate: to Iraq in the year 637, Damascus in 638, Jerusalem in 640, Egypt in 641. And Islam spread throughout Mesopotamia and North Africa by conquests, by the sword, obliging the native people, among them Jews and Christians, to convert.
When Omar arrived in this land, he let Christians choose — as they were the majority –, between death, conversion, or payment of tribute, and this according to Islamic Law. We are descendants of those Christians that were able to pay and preserve Christianity up to today.
In school and in the University they compared Omar’s second Orthodox Caliphate with the Apostle Paul. They said that thanks to Paul, Christianity spread around the world, and, thanks to Omar, Islam spread throughout Mesopotamia and North Africa. Having just finished my Licentiate in Islamic Arabic Studies, I wrote a 150-page thesis on this subject. I affirmed the foregoing but I also said that Paul preached peace, harmony, coexistence, the Lord’s words, and He was in fact killed, he died a martyr, for having done so. But the second Orthodox Caliphate conquered with the sword, obliging people to convert. So, they can’t be compared. Omar was killed by one of his slaves, of Persian origin, in vengeance for the killing of all his family. There is no comparison.
A very rich and wise member of my family had a publishing house in 1980. He wanted to publish my thesis. I gave him permission. Then, some Islamist radicals burned him alive and gave his family 48 hours to leave the country. Today they are living in the United States and don’t want to have anything to do with me; of course, they blame me for their father’s death. I had to flee from the city of Basora, near Ur, to the Nineveh Plain, to my village, close to where the Pope went. I was hidden for three months in a small room. Only one of my uncles knew where I was, and he gave me only one plate of food a day, until my father, may he rest in peace, came to an agreement with the Islamic fanatics paying them a lot of money and with the Government, which sentenced me to six months in prison, on the condition that I be flogged as much as possible but not killed. And so it was.
This is the history of Christianity in Iraq. That’s why people get confused between the terms Arab, Muslim, and us, Christians, who were born there. We aren’t Arabs or Muslims, but Mesopotamian Chaldean Christians and proud of it. And our name comes from the memory of the Empire of the Chaldeans of Babylon, in the 6th century before Christ. Pope Julius III gave it to us in the year 1553.
There is another branch of the Assyrian Church of the East also in memory of the Assyrian Empire, to distinguish between Chaldean Catholics united to Rome and the Nestorian Assyrians.
Raad Salam NaamanGrzona: Why are Christians persecuted?
Naaman: The Christian persecution is not something of today; it has always existed, since the arrival of Islam.
Grzona: Seeing this picture, Pope Francis decided very courageously to go to Iraq. How did the Iraqi people see that visit?
Naaman: For me, it was a show of great courage. It had great meaning and hope for all Christians. We received his decision with much joy and hope. Moreover, it’s a great privilege to have the Pope visit our country. It gives much encouragement to Christians to continue enduring and it also acknowledges what I call the genocide of Christians in Iraq.
I don’t want to lose my Christian roots in the country; I don’t want Christians to leave it. I was persecuted and even sentenced to death and I had no alternative than to flee from there. Fortunately and thank God, I live well in Spain — relatively also, because we Christians are having a bit of a hard time here.
The papal visit has great meaning. I think the Pope’s main objective was to encourage Christians in the persecution, to give them strength, encouragement, and to continue in the Christian faith, not to lose hope as, one day, peace will come to this land.
Before the Pope arrived, for many it was like Easter; they were all praying. Some members of my family with whom I spoke, some priests, told me that three days before the visit they couldn’t sleep because they had a sensation of joy, hope, peace and harmony. Let’s see if with the Pope’s arrival our origins, the persecution and our suffering in the country is made known!
Grzona: A week has already passed since the Apostolic Journey. Which of the Holy Father’s addresses do you think will be most remembered by the people?
Naaman: All, one completes the other; they are important. I liked the first one very much when he talked about Abraham. He is the Father of all religions and of all the prophets, a friend of God. This is the meeting point between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And also the Pope’s visit to Ur, which I know very well, close to where I grew up. It was an opportunity to reconstruct all that area. They did some magnificent works there for the visit.
He also spoke of peace with much courage, of the persecution, of the genocide that Christians are suffering. And he didn’t speak only of them, but also of the Yazidis and the Mandaeans that live there. The Pope talked about all this persecution, about the corruption this country has had for many years. He made the rulers understand that they were mistreating the Christian citizens. He made an appeal for international unity, to acknowledge the Christian persecution in Iraq, and to support the persecuted Christians.
I liked the first address a lot because he talked about many issues that worry us profoundly. He spoke of the massive emigration of Christians from Iraq. Many people don’t know it, but in Saddam Hussein’s time, there were almost two million Christians. Since his regime fell in 2004, today there are some 200,000. And the latter don’t know what kind of future awaits them; they are desperate. The Pope gave them encouragement and hope.
He also talked about Christians that are in border countries with Iraq: Syria, Lebanon, Jordan. He encouraged them to return to Iraq. But here I do ask for protection for those that return; they need help. They have lost all that they had.
And, what is most important, the Pope ended his address saying that one can’t kill in the name of God, whatever He is called. His name must not be used to persecute, mistreat or kill other people.
In his address in Nineveh to the clergy, with Patriarch Louis Raphael I Sako, a great man, I know him very well, the Pope encouraged them to continue working for peace, sowing the Christian faith in the community. The work of priests here is priceless.
Very important for me was the Pope’s Mass in Baghdad’s Church. This Church is very important, because on Sunday, October 31, 2010, while 160 faithful were celebrating the Eucharist, four Islamic fanatics entered and blew up the Church, leaving 60 dead martyrs and 80 wounded. When I saw the images, tears fell from my eyes, because that day I went to Iraq, risking my life, to help those affected. Even the hospitals didn’t want to care for the Christians wounded in the attack; they rejected them.
Grzona: In the images, we saw Muslim people welcoming the Pontiff and greeting him on the streets. Were they doing so out of curiosity?
Naaman: No, it isn’t curiosity. I have been talking about Islam’s ideology, but there are very many Muslims that are good people, who want to coexist in peace. Muslims helped me to escape; they saved my life. In my country, I have felt the sword seven times on my neck and those who saved me were Muslims.
Not all Muslims are bad. If 1,600 million Muslims were bad, “turn the lights off and let’s go.” There are also classes, and many Shi’ites and Sunnis that practice Islam don’t believe in the Jihad (the Holy War); they believe in coexistence and peace. I have very many Muslim friends. Of those that greeted the Pope, some did so from their heart, because they are also suffering. In Iraq, there are also Muslims that have suffered wars and attacks.
Grzona: The user Lester Antonio Zapata says the following: I believe that in Spanish we distinguish between the Islam of ideology and the Muslim religion.
Naaman: For me, Islam is a social and political movement. I’m talking about the ideology, not the people. I have eight books written on this. According to the Koran, thank God and my head, which is very large and has much hair, I know the book by heart, and the Bible also. It says that Mohammed is the last prophet and the seal of all the prophets; therefore, Islam affirms that Mohammed is the Messiah. They don’t believe in Jesus as such. That’s why they call us Nazarenes, not Christians.
The same happens with Judaism. But they are our roots; they are before us. If they believed this, they would have to convert to Christianity. They are still waiting for the Messiah. I respect the Muslims, everyone’s belief.
Grzona: Returning to the Pope’s addresses, I realized that there were key words such as love, coexistence, brotherhood and forgiveness. Which of these do you think the people will remember most as the keyword of the addresses?
Naaman: The first he said was “love.” Why? because Christianity is identified with love. The word is mentioned 155 times in the Bible, never in the Koran. Synonyms yes, but the word as such, no. The First Letter of Saint John says that God is love; one who doesn’t love doesn’t know Him (1 John 4:8) Love is the key to all, and then peace, harmony, help. These are the keywords the Pope said. They are things that must be applied if there is going to be coexistence.
However, he also emphasized knowledge of the Christian region <and> invited Muslims to know it. This reminded me perfectly of the dialogue Saint Francis had with the Caliph of the time (Malek al-Kamel) in 1219. It reminded me also of the meeting between the Pope and al-Sistani. The Caliph was a tyrant who even paid money to anyone who brought him the head of a Christian and, Saint Francis, with all his courage, went to preach to him. This struck my heart.
Exaudi: Francis met with the Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Husaini Sistani. What meaning and relevance does this meeting have for the inter-religious dialogue and the country?
Naaman: Al-Sistani is among the 10 most influential Shi’ite religious leaders in the world. He is of Iranian origin and has millions of followers. Although the Shi’ite branch doesn’t reach 15% of Islam, it’s powerful, especially in Iran and Iraq. It’s the one that commands, that governs.
Hence his meeting with the Pope was very important. The Holy Father knows what he is doing and he is very humble. He wants to talk with all, as Saint Francis did, who went to speak with everyone with much courage. Significant also is that <the Pope> visited him in his home. It shows that Christianity is a religion of peace, of dialogue, and of coexistence. I interpret the papal gesture as a message that Christianity is a religion of love and humility.
Grzona: The next question is from user Hugo Flores. It’s said that the Koran mentions Jesus Christ more than Mohammed. Is this true? It‘s also said that Islam respects the Virgin Mary. Is this true?
Naaman: First, the Koran is a book of laws; it does not recount the life of Mohammed, as the Gospel does, which is Jesus’ life. It was written 200 years after his death. It has 114 surahs (chapters) with 6,236 verses. There are two surahs that talk about Mohammed’s life. The only woman mentioned in the Koran is Mary, Jesus’ Mother. There is a surah that has her name.
However, the story of Jesus in the Koran is completely different from that of the Bible. This is too long a subject to be simplified here and now. The Koran does mention them, and they respect Mary.
Grzona: A question from user Lester Antonio Zapata. Today Christians are very polarized. Are Christians in Iraq united? Are there Protestants and Orthodox there? What is their dialogue like?
Naaman: Christianity exists in the whole world. Before dialoguing with other ideologies, what we must do is find a form of dialogue and understanding between all the branches of Christianity.
Today there are no confrontations, wars or violence among these branches. There are many differences in dogma, in Iraq also. There are Orthodox, Nestorians, Jacobites, Copts, Armenians, Protestants . . . However, the largest Church is the Chaldean, the Catholic, united to Rome. As we are all persecuted, there are no differences. Islam doesn’t differentiate between the branches. Christians are united to address this genocide at the hands of radical Muslims.
Grzona: A question from the same user. Can you say something that is common between Christianity and Islam?
Naaman: Islam is a reality, it exists, and we have to coexist with it. As the Pope said, the meeting exists because of Abraham. Although his story in the Koran is different from that of the Bible, he is the Father of the prophets of all religions. That’s the door to talk with Muslims.
Grzona: What positive values does Islam transmit to its faithful? You said there are good people among them.
Naaman: Islam is not only laws but also tradition. The Muslims sow it from the time they are born. They grow up with these values. The positive things are that they help one another, value the family, have great respect for parents, grandparents and ancestors. And they defend their religion, even if it is through violence.
There are also agnostics and atheists in Islam. But they also respect their tradition and get angry if one attacks it. It’s something that we Christians lost many years ago. This is what we must learn from Islam: to respect our tradition and our faith, and to defend them.
Grzona: Another question of Lester Antonio Zapata: What are the greatest challenges the Church faces in Iraq today?
Naaman: Confrontation.
Grzona: As you said, those of Iraq are the first Christians. How can we, from America, collaborate with them who today are suffering martyrdom in the country?
Naaman: When I’m asked how persecuted Christians can be helped, I always say that, when Jesus came down to the Earth, it was to testify to the truth. It’s what He said to Pilate: “For this I have come to the world, to testify to the truth.” All of us Christians can do this, that is, condemn genocide and persecution, to talk about that. Not to talk out of courtesy or by mincing words, but to say that Christians are truly dying at the hands of Islamic radicalism in the name of Allah.
They killed my father, my uncle, 70 members of my family, and now I have family everywhere: in Jordan, in Lebanon, hoping to be able to leave. We are waiting for the truth to be told, without mincing words. We have suffered first hand. This is what is happening. It’s the first thing.
Moral help is very important for a Christian. A persecuted Christian who flees to a Western country needs psychological and spiritual support when he arrives. He needs to be welcomed by Christians, in their churches, to encourage him to go on. Because one of the consequences of this persecution is the loss of faith because one thinks he is alone and nobody helps him. And if on top of it he flees and no one supports him or gives him affection, well, he loses the faith.
We can learn this also from Muslims. When they emigrate, the mosques and Imams welcome them. They help them economically and spiritually in keeping with the Muslim rite.
When there is talk of helping persecuted Christians now, it’s always talk of economic aid. I have always said that this aid is of the third degree of importance. What is most important is spiritual help and encouragement.
Grzona: Would you like to end by saying a few words of encouragement to those of us who live far from Iraq, so that we can feel more like brothers?
Naaman: The Western countries and America put all immigrants in the same bag. When I arrived in Spain, they said “this is the Moor, the Muslim.” Priests, including a Bishop, asked me if I was a Muslim that converted. I told them I was a Chaldean Christian. And they got confused. And I asked them, where is the Christian culture? Knowledge is very important.
I believe this is the beginning of the end. We are the first persecuted ones. But don’t think that the persecution is on the Eastern border. You are also going to suffer it. I encourage all Catholic and non-Catholic Christians to know and to differentiate between the good and the bad. We must first know our religion, and then the other ideologies and movements.
And to understand the persecution and to learn from persecuted Christians because you are not far from persecution, it’s coming to our home. Not only from Islam but also ideologies such as Communism, Socialism, atheism, woolly Liberalism. Therefore, one must learn from the first persecuted, from those of us who have suffered, so that other persecutions can be faced.
